I find the ability of Labour party members (and I am one) to make this about themselves really quite nauseating.
Everyone is distressed about the situation but descending into some factional war is just so self indulgent. Calling for a ceasefire isn't going to make a jot of difference but just making yourself feel better.
I know it sounds weird - as a one-time Labour member who left during the Corbyn years, who might be again. But it is a rather good thing Labour now has a leader who is not particularly interested in the ramblings and preoccupations of its members - who as you say, could turn Armageddon itself into a factional internal fight.
I can’t wrap my head around Labour councillors abandoning vulnerable and struggling UK citizens to try to force the (powerless) Leader of HM Opposition to comply with their demands or resign. Performative ideology is the stuff of student politics, not power.
Good piece but one thing you are missing to understand the Israel perspective is addressing the post WW2 persecution and ethnic cleansing of Jews in Arab countries. Kishinev, Dreyfus and other instances of persecution in Europe over a century ago are less relevant than the Aden 1947 pogrom, Tunisia 1967 pogroms and all other instances of ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Maghreb and Middle East, whose descendants now represent over a third of the Israeli population
Yup, that's exactly how it is. Or at least, how it is for me. I see so much hate on both "sides". In fact I hate that I'm referring to sides; I'd like to draw a boundary between Hamas, Jew-haters, Islamophobes, settlers and Netanyahu on one side, and the sane rest of the world on the other. Then I'd pick a side. Thanks for expressing things so well Ian (and obviously putting in a mention of the Dreyfus Affair)
So much has been said on the political situation over the past 70+ years, and whilst the possibility of a long-term solution has waxed and waned over this time, there are points like this where not even a short-term solution has seemed possible. Those questions you ask in order to provide a short-term solution are what we should be doing, alleviating as much pain and suffering and death as possible, and it behoves the allies of both Hamas and the Israeli government to push them to each party. Will it happen? I'm not holding my breath, but I hope it's happening behind closed doors.
Thank you, Ian, for expressing so clearly what I have been struggling to articulate for some time: the impossibility of it all, but while acknowledging that still wanting to find solutions or at least better, fairer outcomes, and not falling into the trap of somehow believing that one set of lives is somehow more valuable than the other. And at the same time, that awful feeling inside..... Absolutely.
Thanks for a very thoughtful article. Looking at the issues through the prism of Isaiah Berlin’s philosophy leads to the right questions about how to make the situation less imperfect.
I might comment on your analysis that someone opposing a ceasefire is implicitly valuing Israeli lives more than Palestinian lives, and vice versa. To me the question is not which lives matter more, but which deaths diminish us more. This involves questions such as whether the party causing the deaths has a just objective, whether the objective is realistically achievable, whether the deaths are incidental or an end in themselves, whether care has been taken to reduce the number of deaths, whether the deaths are caused with regret or with glee, the degree of cruelty involved, whether the party suffering the deaths has put civilians in harms way, and so forth.
The evaluation of these factors is contested though, in my view, they point to deaths being caused by Hamas as being more deplorable even if deaths caused by Israel are equally regrettable.
Perhaps the most important question is what the long-term consequences might be. Defeat of Hamas could lead to a situation in which a sustainable peace is possible. Freezing the conflict with Hamas’ capability intact is likely to lead to further cycles of violence.
Maybe these issues are just another way of applying Berlin’s perspective though.
If anyone needs evidence of those screaming from the social media sidelines for us all to pick a side checkout the insanity of the reaction to the recent M&S Xmas ad....filmed in August.
I know for a fact that one of the participants got absolutely flamed with personal abuse online including the hashtags ‘massacresupporter’ & ‘genocider’.
And there was I thinking red & green were the most traditional Xmas colours.
From someone who was on the marches whose perspective you asked for: the offer to Israel is to end the occupation and undergo a transformation akin to apartheid South Africa. A truth and reconciliation commission to disclose the truth of the occupation that hasn't stopped for 75 years. This would defang Hamas as their goal is to end the occupation (using highly questionable methods). What Israel is doing now is not fighting hamas but rather guaranteeing they will never struggle to recruit new members. And if they eradicate hamas a new organisation would emerge to resist the occupation. Turns out people don't quietly go along with ethnic cleansing and disenfranchisement.
The offer to Israel is to relieve their souls of the damage done by the violence and dehumanisation that is a necessary condition of the status-quo. Palestinians should not be made to pay for Europe's disgusting history of antisemitism.
Nothing can justify an apartheid state with 5 million non-citizens denied the right to vote and move freely (I'm talking about the west bank where there is no Hamas). Ending apartheid is the only way to end the cycle of violence that undermines the security of Israelis, Palestinians, and Jewish people around the world.
Sorry but this is such a weak response which just restates your view on Israel. Provides absolutely no assurances whatsoever. Your assessment of Hamas' goals is also utterly wrong.
That's not really engaging with any substance of what I said. We can quibble about what Hamas' ultimate goal, but that is irrelevant to what is going on in the occupied west bank. How can you possibly argue that evicting more and more people from their land via IDF-backed settler militias has anything to do with safety for anyone and will lead to anything but violence.
You are right that Jews need a safe homeland. However, I am a British Jew who has lived in London all my life, but no longer feel safe on the streets of London. Like many others, I will not go into central London at the weekend at the moment. It is scant consolation that I can leave the home of my birth to be safe elsewhere.
I find the ability of Labour party members (and I am one) to make this about themselves really quite nauseating.
Everyone is distressed about the situation but descending into some factional war is just so self indulgent. Calling for a ceasefire isn't going to make a jot of difference but just making yourself feel better.
I know it sounds weird - as a one-time Labour member who left during the Corbyn years, who might be again. But it is a rather good thing Labour now has a leader who is not particularly interested in the ramblings and preoccupations of its members - who as you say, could turn Armageddon itself into a factional internal fight.
Thank you Ian for this excellent, thoughtful piece which articulates so well the moral complexities. I shall encourage all those I can to read it.
I can’t wrap my head around Labour councillors abandoning vulnerable and struggling UK citizens to try to force the (powerless) Leader of HM Opposition to comply with their demands or resign. Performative ideology is the stuff of student politics, not power.
Yep. It's pathetic. Utterly inane.
I can highly recommend Robert Habeck´s official comment on this subject. (He´s a German Minister)
https://twitter.com/BMWK/status/1720130870864998800
That was very good
Yeah, just don't read the replies!
Brilliant piece, thanks Ian. I haven’t heard or read anything up to now that’s come anywhere close to what I’m thinking & feeling.
Good piece but one thing you are missing to understand the Israel perspective is addressing the post WW2 persecution and ethnic cleansing of Jews in Arab countries. Kishinev, Dreyfus and other instances of persecution in Europe over a century ago are less relevant than the Aden 1947 pogrom, Tunisia 1967 pogroms and all other instances of ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Maghreb and Middle East, whose descendants now represent over a third of the Israeli population
Yup, that's exactly how it is. Or at least, how it is for me. I see so much hate on both "sides". In fact I hate that I'm referring to sides; I'd like to draw a boundary between Hamas, Jew-haters, Islamophobes, settlers and Netanyahu on one side, and the sane rest of the world on the other. Then I'd pick a side. Thanks for expressing things so well Ian (and obviously putting in a mention of the Dreyfus Affair)
So much has been said on the political situation over the past 70+ years, and whilst the possibility of a long-term solution has waxed and waned over this time, there are points like this where not even a short-term solution has seemed possible. Those questions you ask in order to provide a short-term solution are what we should be doing, alleviating as much pain and suffering and death as possible, and it behoves the allies of both Hamas and the Israeli government to push them to each party. Will it happen? I'm not holding my breath, but I hope it's happening behind closed doors.
Thank you, Ian, for expressing so clearly what I have been struggling to articulate for some time: the impossibility of it all, but while acknowledging that still wanting to find solutions or at least better, fairer outcomes, and not falling into the trap of somehow believing that one set of lives is somehow more valuable than the other. And at the same time, that awful feeling inside..... Absolutely.
Thanks for a very thoughtful article. Looking at the issues through the prism of Isaiah Berlin’s philosophy leads to the right questions about how to make the situation less imperfect.
I might comment on your analysis that someone opposing a ceasefire is implicitly valuing Israeli lives more than Palestinian lives, and vice versa. To me the question is not which lives matter more, but which deaths diminish us more. This involves questions such as whether the party causing the deaths has a just objective, whether the objective is realistically achievable, whether the deaths are incidental or an end in themselves, whether care has been taken to reduce the number of deaths, whether the deaths are caused with regret or with glee, the degree of cruelty involved, whether the party suffering the deaths has put civilians in harms way, and so forth.
The evaluation of these factors is contested though, in my view, they point to deaths being caused by Hamas as being more deplorable even if deaths caused by Israel are equally regrettable.
Perhaps the most important question is what the long-term consequences might be. Defeat of Hamas could lead to a situation in which a sustainable peace is possible. Freezing the conflict with Hamas’ capability intact is likely to lead to further cycles of violence.
Maybe these issues are just another way of applying Berlin’s perspective though.
So helpful. Thank you!
This is excellent. Humane and compassionate, and realistic.
Thoughtful piece, thank you.
Superb Ian. Right out of your top drawer.
If anyone needs evidence of those screaming from the social media sidelines for us all to pick a side checkout the insanity of the reaction to the recent M&S Xmas ad....filmed in August.
https://news.sky.com/story/ms-apologises-and-pulls-christmas-advert-post-after-palestinian-flag-controversy-12998552
I know for a fact that one of the participants got absolutely flamed with personal abuse online including the hashtags ‘massacresupporter’ & ‘genocider’.
And there was I thinking red & green were the most traditional Xmas colours.
Jesus fucking Christ. Insane.
Kathryn Birbalsingh s letter of performative outrage to M and S for withdrawing the ad made me want to rend my clothes in despair.
From someone who was on the marches whose perspective you asked for: the offer to Israel is to end the occupation and undergo a transformation akin to apartheid South Africa. A truth and reconciliation commission to disclose the truth of the occupation that hasn't stopped for 75 years. This would defang Hamas as their goal is to end the occupation (using highly questionable methods). What Israel is doing now is not fighting hamas but rather guaranteeing they will never struggle to recruit new members. And if they eradicate hamas a new organisation would emerge to resist the occupation. Turns out people don't quietly go along with ethnic cleansing and disenfranchisement.
The offer to Israel is to relieve their souls of the damage done by the violence and dehumanisation that is a necessary condition of the status-quo. Palestinians should not be made to pay for Europe's disgusting history of antisemitism.
Nothing can justify an apartheid state with 5 million non-citizens denied the right to vote and move freely (I'm talking about the west bank where there is no Hamas). Ending apartheid is the only way to end the cycle of violence that undermines the security of Israelis, Palestinians, and Jewish people around the world.
Sorry but this is such a weak response which just restates your view on Israel. Provides absolutely no assurances whatsoever. Your assessment of Hamas' goals is also utterly wrong.
That's not really engaging with any substance of what I said. We can quibble about what Hamas' ultimate goal, but that is irrelevant to what is going on in the occupied west bank. How can you possibly argue that evicting more and more people from their land via IDF-backed settler militias has anything to do with safety for anyone and will lead to anything but violence.
Thank you so much for this comment. The only one that made sense to me.
You are right that Jews need a safe homeland. However, I am a British Jew who has lived in London all my life, but no longer feel safe on the streets of London. Like many others, I will not go into central London at the weekend at the moment. It is scant consolation that I can leave the home of my birth to be safe elsewhere.