I was waiting for a concert to start the other day. It was a stadium gig, so outdoors, and I had gotten there early as I wanted a good spot. But a pretty tight spot, and next to me there was a group of 6 people who never stopped smoking the entire time, and this is probably for a good 7 hours. By the end of the night I left feeling nauceous and with a smoker's cough. So yes, smoking outdoors can absolutely do someone else harm, and these people couldn't even be bothered to blow the smoke in a different direction when I asked them to. So I am all for banning it in certain places. It's nasty, and not at all the same as having to listen to a conversation you don't like.
I was going to comment below but I scanned and saw a lot of good comments. Thus, I’ll piggyback on your response to provide my humble opinion. This entire article—I admit I did not finish it—is simply a vacuous and specious argument that clearly illustrates how anyone can posit an argument that appears to be rational BUT IS NOT.
Even if outdoor smokers really try to "blow the smoke in a different direction" (which they rarely consent to, and I long ago gave up asking), they usually can't do it. That's because outdoors, the wind blows, and even if it's just a light breeze, it'll be directional. The breeze blows whichever way it wants, and neither smokers nor non-smokers have any control over it. That's why I rarely dine outdoors any more, especially in places where they permit outdoor smoking. I agree with your statement that outdoor smoke can absolutely do someone else harm.
I have impaired lungs, not least due to smoking (which I gave up about thirteen years ago). The smell of cigarette smoke makes me feel ill, and as for the revolting, fruity vape fumes? Thank you but no.
As a long term sufferer of allergic rhinitis, I entirely disagree with your suggestion that an ash tray on a table represents freedom, and I entirely disagree with your suggestion that smoking outside is harmless to the people nearby.
On those points you are simply wrong.
You do have a point that there are better priorities for the limited time for legislation, but please discard the myth that smoking is only a threat to other people in enclosed spaces
I don't think smokers realise just how far and wide the smell of cigarette smoke spreads. Even outdoors. It's on smokers' taste buds, it's in their nostrils, it's on their clothes, it's probably in their homes and cars, and they've become numb to it. But for a lot of non-smokers, it's a very strong, deeply unpleasant and often unbearable smell. And it doesn't matter which way you blow the smoke, it still spreads everywhere.
Normally I find you a paragon of reason, Ian, but on this occasion I think you've abandoned it because it's something that would affect your personal pleasure.
I was a 50 year smoker and had no idea how far the odour travels or how unpleasant it can be. I am no ex-smoker evangelist type but i’m with you on this.
The majority of the rubbish I see near any venue its hundreds of butt ends. When smokers can be bothered to dispose of their butt in the bin they may have some rights to enter the debate. In the meantime review the cameras and charge everyone £100 (local rates may vary) for dropping a butt end for littering, all within the current littering laws
My daughter has asthma, and anyone nearby smoking affects her badly. So if we have a nice seat in a beer garden or terrace and someone sits nearby and sparks up, we have to move. The idea that no-one outside is affected is laughable. I agree it shouldn't be a priority, but it's a good move.
Strong disagree about smoking. Why should people who want to sit in a pub garden have their experience ruined by nearby smokers? Smoking in the vicinity of non-smokers is not “unwise or inconvenient”; the overwhelming majority find it unpleasant and there are potential harmful health consequences for some.
Tuesday was a brilliantly sunny day in Bilbao and my wife and I were having a light lunch on a small terrace. A middle-aged, middle class woman took the table next to us and started smoking. Perfectly legal, of course, but also completely anti-social - being constantly enveloped in cigarette smoke spoiled an enjoyable lunch. I tried to politely ask if she could stop for a while but was totally ignored and she chain-smoked throughout our meal. The French family sitting at a nearby table were equally unimpressed.
Why should I have to put up with such anti-social and unhealthy behaviour?
Yeah, I was in Texas and passed a gun shop. It said to me yes you can. FFS Dunt!
I don't want second hand smoke or vape fumes, I don't want my clothes smelling of cigarettes. I would rather the NHS needed to spend less on smoking related illnesses.
This is one of those occasions when your right to swing your arm ends where my nose begins. Cigarettes allow you to swing that arm a good deal further than I think you realise.
I don’t think tobacco smokers really appreciate how far away their smoke can affect others. As an asthmatic I can be pretty certain that if I encounter a smoker on a cold day, I will be suffering an attack in the following seconds. I think you’d have a different view on the issue if you understood how many distressing wheezing attacks you’ve unwittingly inflicted on other people.
I understand your chagrin about suddenly finding a pastime which, in the past, was socially acceptable, even fashionable, has now made you something of an outsider in aspects of your life. It might give you a bit of an insight into how all those MAGA/Brexiter types are feeling on finding that many of their previous (often fairly toxic) attitudes, once socially acceptable, are now considered out of bounds.
Unusually, I couldn't disagree more with this. Smoking outside pubs puts smokers and families in direct conflict. A pub beer garden during summer is usually full of families, as parents try to keep their kids entertained and not annoying everyone inside a pub. Then we have the joy of kids playing in places covered in fag butts. Smokers are terrible at actually using ashtrays or other provided receptacles to dispose of the remnants of their habit, so kids are then forced to run about in a sea of stinking, carcinogenic trash. Smokers are their own worst enemies, but it is such an anti-social habit that their impact on the rest of us means it deserves consigning to the dustbin of history.
No surprise with this opinion given you’re a “liberal extremist”, Ian, but you’re in a definite minority here.
Britons need prodding and pushing into healthier lives if the NHS is to survive. Legislation is a blunt tool and sometimes necessary but urban design, planning, education and, most of all, economic growth will make the bigger difference.
Personally, I think we also ban the wrong things. I don’t and never have used recreational drugs but lots of people do. Un-ban the private use of all but the most dangerous like heroin and regulate (and tax) the supply. Society will adapt and many of the negatives from the "war on drugs" will fade away.
I'm happy to leave smokers alone if they leave me alone. Unfortunately, sitting outside on a restaurant or bar terrace is too often ruined for me by the stink of cigarette smoke. It's anti-social, and while I'm not sure it's a government priority to ban this kind of thing, my quality of life would improve if it were (as it was when smoking inside was banned - that was truly wonderful).
On the latest Alien film, I agree with you (though I have no intention of going to see it - the original was the only one that had any value for me and the rest were increasingly derivative and demonstrated a lack of originality on the part of the filmmakers).
“I've always been a squeamish little coward. If I saw a slug when I was a kid I'd run away screaming. I'm honestly not much improved as an adult. I'm a proper city boy. I have a deep disgust for the gooeyness of nature, the gunky, slimy, decaying unknowableness of it”
I knew there was a reason I liked you!!!
Now just imagine having this same fear of creepy crawlies that you rightly have (insects are our mortal enemy) and then your parents dragging you to live in Australia when you’re ten!!!! The sheer terror of being asked to bring in firewood in this country is something you’ll never have to live with and for that I envy you
Have to say what about the freedom of non-smokers to enjoy a space without having to breath in second hand carcinogens? To not have their kids pick up and play with liberally discarded fag ends? And, if you have a particular vulnerability, to not be made sick by someone blowing their smoke over you? Liberty works both ways.
I would never ban smoking. I'll defend to the death their right to slowly kill themselves over a number of decades. And if we could trust smokers to be considerate, it wouldn't be a problem. However, smokers (and I speak as an ex-smoker) have proven to be amongst the most self-centred and inconsiderate people around. Just walk down the average street and count the number of discarded cigarette butt's. So, yes, they need to be legislated against.
Agree wholeheartedly re Alien: Romulus but I had a fair idea that it would turn out the way it did beforehand. Three stars, I reckon. Prometheus & Covenant were good films but shouldn't have been linked to the Alien Universe in my opinion.
Banning smoking outside - well, as an inveterate pub & restaurant goer, finances permitting, I have to say that I cannot go out & enjoy the sunshine most of the time. By the time I go home, I will stink like an ashtray &, more importantly, I will be seriously wheezing & my ability to be able to walk home compromised. So whose freedom should be protected? The thing is, today's smoker will almost certainly be in my camp eventually because that's what fags do to you. I think the compromise should be that preventing people from getting addicted in the first place.
Also, ashtrays everywhere but a carpet of dogends everywhere. What is wrong with people?
“Liberals believe the following proposition: You should be able to do what you like as long as you are not hurting someone else.
[...] we do not ban things to prevent inconvenience, or distaste. We ban only to prevent harm. Let's say that word again, because it is important. Harm. That is a high bar. It does not cover inconvenience and no civilised person with a responsible sense of societal health would presume otherwise.”
Looks as though you’re pretty confused and cannot tell the difference between a “(modern) liberal” and a “libertarian” view of society. The position you’re outlining in this article is libertarian. I’m sure Elon Musk would agree with you wholeheartedly.
In reality there is no clear and unambiguous way to differentiate between “harm” and “inconvenience”.
Let’s use a less emotionally loaded example than smoking to illustrate that point. If you decide to use a jackhammer on your drive in the middle of the night, you’d be guilty of a “statutory nuisance” and your neighbours would rightfully call the police on you. You’re not physically harming them: a lost night of sleep (even several lost nights of sleep) isn’t going to shorten their lives, but most people reading this blog would agree that your right to make extreme noise on your drive whenever you like shouldn’t take priority over your neighbour's right to be free of such disturbances at least during the night.
On the other end of the scale there are stories of playgrounds getting closed because a grumpy resident complained about the noise of children playing. Most people will agree that this shouldn’t happen.
Somewhere in between is the boundary where opinions start to differ and rules need to be negotiated. There is an interesting article to be written on whether or not our tolerance of other people’s behaviours is decreasing, but this isn’t it.
As our knowledge of how harmful passive smoking is increases and as the number of smokers in society decreases, it is quite natural that tolerance of smoking decreases as well. Your “leave smokers alone” rant just comes across as egotistical libertarian nonsense.
I was waiting for a concert to start the other day. It was a stadium gig, so outdoors, and I had gotten there early as I wanted a good spot. But a pretty tight spot, and next to me there was a group of 6 people who never stopped smoking the entire time, and this is probably for a good 7 hours. By the end of the night I left feeling nauceous and with a smoker's cough. So yes, smoking outdoors can absolutely do someone else harm, and these people couldn't even be bothered to blow the smoke in a different direction when I asked them to. So I am all for banning it in certain places. It's nasty, and not at all the same as having to listen to a conversation you don't like.
I was going to comment below but I scanned and saw a lot of good comments. Thus, I’ll piggyback on your response to provide my humble opinion. This entire article—I admit I did not finish it—is simply a vacuous and specious argument that clearly illustrates how anyone can posit an argument that appears to be rational BUT IS NOT.
Even if outdoor smokers really try to "blow the smoke in a different direction" (which they rarely consent to, and I long ago gave up asking), they usually can't do it. That's because outdoors, the wind blows, and even if it's just a light breeze, it'll be directional. The breeze blows whichever way it wants, and neither smokers nor non-smokers have any control over it. That's why I rarely dine outdoors any more, especially in places where they permit outdoor smoking. I agree with your statement that outdoor smoke can absolutely do someone else harm.
I have impaired lungs, not least due to smoking (which I gave up about thirteen years ago). The smell of cigarette smoke makes me feel ill, and as for the revolting, fruity vape fumes? Thank you but no.
As a long term sufferer of allergic rhinitis, I entirely disagree with your suggestion that an ash tray on a table represents freedom, and I entirely disagree with your suggestion that smoking outside is harmless to the people nearby.
On those points you are simply wrong.
You do have a point that there are better priorities for the limited time for legislation, but please discard the myth that smoking is only a threat to other people in enclosed spaces
I don't think smokers realise just how far and wide the smell of cigarette smoke spreads. Even outdoors. It's on smokers' taste buds, it's in their nostrils, it's on their clothes, it's probably in their homes and cars, and they've become numb to it. But for a lot of non-smokers, it's a very strong, deeply unpleasant and often unbearable smell. And it doesn't matter which way you blow the smoke, it still spreads everywhere.
Normally I find you a paragon of reason, Ian, but on this occasion I think you've abandoned it because it's something that would affect your personal pleasure.
I was a 50 year smoker and had no idea how far the odour travels or how unpleasant it can be. I am no ex-smoker evangelist type but i’m with you on this.
The majority of the rubbish I see near any venue its hundreds of butt ends. When smokers can be bothered to dispose of their butt in the bin they may have some rights to enter the debate. In the meantime review the cameras and charge everyone £100 (local rates may vary) for dropping a butt end for littering, all within the current littering laws
My daughter has asthma, and anyone nearby smoking affects her badly. So if we have a nice seat in a beer garden or terrace and someone sits nearby and sparks up, we have to move. The idea that no-one outside is affected is laughable. I agree it shouldn't be a priority, but it's a good move.
Strong disagree about smoking. Why should people who want to sit in a pub garden have their experience ruined by nearby smokers? Smoking in the vicinity of non-smokers is not “unwise or inconvenient”; the overwhelming majority find it unpleasant and there are potential harmful health consequences for some.
Tuesday was a brilliantly sunny day in Bilbao and my wife and I were having a light lunch on a small terrace. A middle-aged, middle class woman took the table next to us and started smoking. Perfectly legal, of course, but also completely anti-social - being constantly enveloped in cigarette smoke spoiled an enjoyable lunch. I tried to politely ask if she could stop for a while but was totally ignored and she chain-smoked throughout our meal. The French family sitting at a nearby table were equally unimpressed.
Why should I have to put up with such anti-social and unhealthy behaviour?
Yeah, I was in Texas and passed a gun shop. It said to me yes you can. FFS Dunt!
I don't want second hand smoke or vape fumes, I don't want my clothes smelling of cigarettes. I would rather the NHS needed to spend less on smoking related illnesses.
This is one of those occasions when your right to swing your arm ends where my nose begins. Cigarettes allow you to swing that arm a good deal further than I think you realise.
I don’t think tobacco smokers really appreciate how far away their smoke can affect others. As an asthmatic I can be pretty certain that if I encounter a smoker on a cold day, I will be suffering an attack in the following seconds. I think you’d have a different view on the issue if you understood how many distressing wheezing attacks you’ve unwittingly inflicted on other people.
I understand your chagrin about suddenly finding a pastime which, in the past, was socially acceptable, even fashionable, has now made you something of an outsider in aspects of your life. It might give you a bit of an insight into how all those MAGA/Brexiter types are feeling on finding that many of their previous (often fairly toxic) attitudes, once socially acceptable, are now considered out of bounds.
Unusually, I couldn't disagree more with this. Smoking outside pubs puts smokers and families in direct conflict. A pub beer garden during summer is usually full of families, as parents try to keep their kids entertained and not annoying everyone inside a pub. Then we have the joy of kids playing in places covered in fag butts. Smokers are terrible at actually using ashtrays or other provided receptacles to dispose of the remnants of their habit, so kids are then forced to run about in a sea of stinking, carcinogenic trash. Smokers are their own worst enemies, but it is such an anti-social habit that their impact on the rest of us means it deserves consigning to the dustbin of history.
Yes, it's vanishingly rare that I disagree with Ian, but I absolutely do on this occasion.
No surprise with this opinion given you’re a “liberal extremist”, Ian, but you’re in a definite minority here.
Britons need prodding and pushing into healthier lives if the NHS is to survive. Legislation is a blunt tool and sometimes necessary but urban design, planning, education and, most of all, economic growth will make the bigger difference.
Personally, I think we also ban the wrong things. I don’t and never have used recreational drugs but lots of people do. Un-ban the private use of all but the most dangerous like heroin and regulate (and tax) the supply. Society will adapt and many of the negatives from the "war on drugs" will fade away.
I'm happy to leave smokers alone if they leave me alone. Unfortunately, sitting outside on a restaurant or bar terrace is too often ruined for me by the stink of cigarette smoke. It's anti-social, and while I'm not sure it's a government priority to ban this kind of thing, my quality of life would improve if it were (as it was when smoking inside was banned - that was truly wonderful).
On the latest Alien film, I agree with you (though I have no intention of going to see it - the original was the only one that had any value for me and the rest were increasingly derivative and demonstrated a lack of originality on the part of the filmmakers).
“I've always been a squeamish little coward. If I saw a slug when I was a kid I'd run away screaming. I'm honestly not much improved as an adult. I'm a proper city boy. I have a deep disgust for the gooeyness of nature, the gunky, slimy, decaying unknowableness of it”
I knew there was a reason I liked you!!!
Now just imagine having this same fear of creepy crawlies that you rightly have (insects are our mortal enemy) and then your parents dragging you to live in Australia when you’re ten!!!! The sheer terror of being asked to bring in firewood in this country is something you’ll never have to live with and for that I envy you
Have to say what about the freedom of non-smokers to enjoy a space without having to breath in second hand carcinogens? To not have their kids pick up and play with liberally discarded fag ends? And, if you have a particular vulnerability, to not be made sick by someone blowing their smoke over you? Liberty works both ways.
I would never ban smoking. I'll defend to the death their right to slowly kill themselves over a number of decades. And if we could trust smokers to be considerate, it wouldn't be a problem. However, smokers (and I speak as an ex-smoker) have proven to be amongst the most self-centred and inconsiderate people around. Just walk down the average street and count the number of discarded cigarette butt's. So, yes, they need to be legislated against.
It's the ones who empty their car ashtray into the street that I can't stand.
Agree wholeheartedly re Alien: Romulus but I had a fair idea that it would turn out the way it did beforehand. Three stars, I reckon. Prometheus & Covenant were good films but shouldn't have been linked to the Alien Universe in my opinion.
Banning smoking outside - well, as an inveterate pub & restaurant goer, finances permitting, I have to say that I cannot go out & enjoy the sunshine most of the time. By the time I go home, I will stink like an ashtray &, more importantly, I will be seriously wheezing & my ability to be able to walk home compromised. So whose freedom should be protected? The thing is, today's smoker will almost certainly be in my camp eventually because that's what fags do to you. I think the compromise should be that preventing people from getting addicted in the first place.
Also, ashtrays everywhere but a carpet of dogends everywhere. What is wrong with people?
“Liberals believe the following proposition: You should be able to do what you like as long as you are not hurting someone else.
[...] we do not ban things to prevent inconvenience, or distaste. We ban only to prevent harm. Let's say that word again, because it is important. Harm. That is a high bar. It does not cover inconvenience and no civilised person with a responsible sense of societal health would presume otherwise.”
Looks as though you’re pretty confused and cannot tell the difference between a “(modern) liberal” and a “libertarian” view of society. The position you’re outlining in this article is libertarian. I’m sure Elon Musk would agree with you wholeheartedly.
In reality there is no clear and unambiguous way to differentiate between “harm” and “inconvenience”.
Let’s use a less emotionally loaded example than smoking to illustrate that point. If you decide to use a jackhammer on your drive in the middle of the night, you’d be guilty of a “statutory nuisance” and your neighbours would rightfully call the police on you. You’re not physically harming them: a lost night of sleep (even several lost nights of sleep) isn’t going to shorten their lives, but most people reading this blog would agree that your right to make extreme noise on your drive whenever you like shouldn’t take priority over your neighbour's right to be free of such disturbances at least during the night.
On the other end of the scale there are stories of playgrounds getting closed because a grumpy resident complained about the noise of children playing. Most people will agree that this shouldn’t happen.
Somewhere in between is the boundary where opinions start to differ and rules need to be negotiated. There is an interesting article to be written on whether or not our tolerance of other people’s behaviours is decreasing, but this isn’t it.
As our knowledge of how harmful passive smoking is increases and as the number of smokers in society decreases, it is quite natural that tolerance of smoking decreases as well. Your “leave smokers alone” rant just comes across as egotistical libertarian nonsense.